Transparent police.

[Матушкин Андрей Николаевич]

Georgian Interior Minister Vano Merabishvili in an interview with Forbes: reforming the police in Russia would be even easier than in Georgia - if someone wanted to

Knowing the strict disposition of the right hand of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and his oldest colleague, Forbes decided to try out the reception of his wards at Minister Vano Merabishvili, playing as a good and bad investigator. We invited Miss Georgia 2011 Janet Kerdikoshvili to the role of a good investigator; Forbes columnist Ilya Zhegulev played a bad one.

Janet Kerdikoshvili: Police reform in Georgia is perhaps the most visible and most successful among the reforms. However, thousands of strong people capable of power operations were dismissed and then not reinstated. Weren't you afraid to hack in Georgia so weak after the revolution?

- There was nothing to fear. These changes were primarily the need of the people. People are tired of corruption, which has penetrated into all spheres of society, from the oppressive rule of thieves in law. All changes took place gradually, so that society had time to adapt to the new lifestyle that they themselves needed. As for the dismissed employees, most of them left of their own free will. Their foundations of life did not fit into the new form of existence of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. You correctly noted that this is a huge force, since the number of laid-off employees exceeded 80,000. Of the old employees, only 5% remained.


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Vano Merabishvili | Georgia
Ilya Zhegulev: Police are not so bad, but how did you deal with thieves in law? After all, it was one of the “professions” most in demand in Georgia.

- There was no special system for dealing with them as such. We managed to create a society where it became difficult for “thieves in law” to exist. Of course, this was facilitated by the emergence of a special institution to combat organized crime. New anti-mafia legislation has been developed. People were caught only because they did not refuse the title of thief in law. For our country, thieves even came up with a special rule: in Georgia you could recognize yourself as an ordinary person, and then thieves would not exclude you from their circle. But such "liberalization" did not help them. In a literal sense, the hunt for thieves in law began, and most of them went to jail, and the other part disappeared behind the territory of Georgia. Believe me, these people are not awarded any privileges within the walls of the prison, but rather. vice versa.

D.K .: But, after dismissing the old and gaining new employees, raising their salaries, you did not get rid of corruption?

- Of course, in order to achieve such a result - the third place among the most non-corrupt states of Europe - it took us years. Raising the salary of our employees, we gave them an incentive to work in good faith. They no longer needed to make money in a corrupt way. Unlike the police, changing the minds of ordinary citizens was much more difficult. For a long time, people could not break the habit of offering bribes.

Now, according to our data, the trust of the population in the police is about 90%. By this indicator, we are in the top five world leaders. I myself wondered how it happened. Just the police themselves believed in themselves. Our biggest victory - we technically went through the procedures, often changed direction, but skillfully decided how to improve the situation. At some point, everything had already gone on its own.

Perhaps the most important thing is to be honest with them and openly discuss with them the issues that arise. The main thing is that they themselves participate in this, feel themselves as participants in decision-making.

I. Zh.: Have you convinced people to cooperate with law enforcement agencies? Or is "knocking" for Georgians the last thing?

- The fact that criminal people are in Georgia is a myth. Everyone wants to live better in any society. And ordinary people suffer from crime in the first place. We also contributed to the fact that a person receives a certain monetary incentive for cooperation with the police. We also adopted a new law on a contract with a criminal. With us, 96% of all processes end with a contract. For example, I am a suspect, I am offered to negotiate with the prosecutor. If the law provides for three to six, let's not suffer, and you and I will agree on three. If you agree, after 15 minutes the trial ends. Just like in American films. This is an exact copy of the American system. If you don’t agree, the whole system works against you and tries to give you six. In Georgia, the lawsuit used to take a year and a half.

And if you give some information about accomplices, immediately at the official level there is trade. You can agree that they will not give you 10 years, but five. If it’s very important information, a person can be freed altogether. Killer calls the customer - there is a trade. This is done transparently. Some very cunning criminals before arrest have three or four unsolved crimes in their pocket to bargain with. Now, when a group of 3-4 people is detained, these people are praying: God, make me the first to be interrogated.

Informally, such a system also works in Russia. And here everything happens openly. For example, about corruption. If a person gave a bribe and if he gave information about his boss, in most cases he is released. So we fight elitist corruption. If he hands over the boss, they sign an agreement with him, they let him go, and he helps to arrest his boss.

I. Zh. A contract with a criminal is a good thing, with the help of blackmail you can persuade anyone to plead guilty. Will the court be objective? How was the judicial system reformed? Has the number of acquittals increased?

- The presence of acquittals does not mean the absence of corruption. Sometimes there are situations that the more justifying the more corrupt. But when financial disputes between the state and a private person are examined, in most cases the state loses with us. Partly or in full. I do not know what the percentage of acquittals in America is, but when the percentage of corruption is minimal, the investigation usually wins. If there is no corruption, who will catch and arrest an innocent person? The less corrupt the police and prosecutors, the fewer acquittals will be in court. Because the police - they have no plans to arrest a man. Firstly, in 96% of cases, this is a contract with a criminal. It happens that the court does not approve the agreement, but this rarely happens. They agreed.

But you are right, it is impossible to clear one single link taken from the system. Even if there is corruption even in the tax office, sooner or later this corruption will come to the police. Or if the notaries - will go to local government. It is impossible to make and fix some kind of isolation. When they say about Georgia, it is the police reform that is visually noticeable. But it’s just easier to notice than in other systems. Therefore, it is necessary to carry out these forms everywhere. If there is corruption, the entire anti-corruption system will fall apart.

D.K .: Is it possible to carry out such reforms in a large country?

- Sure. It’s easier there. Unsuccessful reforms happen when opponents of reforms are stronger than their supporters. This is an axiom. The larger the state, the more difficult it is to consolidate opponents of reform. In Georgia, 10,000 people can create more public opinion than in Russia, 200,000 or a million. The smaller the country, the more interest groups have on the situation. This is the first reason it is easier to navigate. When we started the reforms, the state system in Georgia was ten times weaker than in Russia. Russia was stronger in 2005, namely as a state. State institutions you have traditionally been more manageable, because Russian statehood has existed for a long time, since the XII century. On the other hand, the average Russian citizen is more law-abiding than the Georgian. It is not only thieves in law. A Russian citizen was always more educated than in Georgia. The center is more educated than the periphery, this is the law. Therefore, we do not want to be the periphery, we want to be the center.

I. Zh: Well, if the regional elites across the country oppose reforms?

- Well, it’s somewhere in the provinces, and here nearby, in Tbilisi, people who are very influential will criticize and create public opinion. They have friends - journalists. In Russia, all the reforms that were started were completed successfully. Reforms of Peter, Catherine II. If people came who wanted to do something, knew how to do it, they all worked their way. Because the perception of statehood in Russia is greater than in Georgia. Now we want to create Georgian statehood so that Georgians are accustomed to being their own state.

D. K: So Russia needs to find the right government?

- It's not just the government. The elite must want to change. Now, if the guys were sitting, they said: "We are behind the world, so Russia cannot develop."

After all, no matter how much oil, it must be honestly acknowledged that Russia is losing its weight in the world every year. Huge competition. Turkey is growing, India, not to mention China. Even 20 years ago, Russia was the second or third state. Now is the seventh-eighth. Sooner or later it will be the 25th. And by population, and throughout. It is impossible today to win without globalization. And in a system ruled by corruption, it is impossible to talk about globalization at all.

I. Zh.: And how do you feel about the police reform already carried out, which, however, is criticized by everyone?

- Even if the police carried out a real serious reform, this would not help. Because if it is not carried out throughout the state, the police will last no more than three months. How can you change morally when everything is the same around? If a policeman sees that a fireman is standing next to him, takes bribes, the tax inspector takes bribes - he will not believe his boss that he does not take bribes. It also does not happen. I didn’t even try to read what was happening with the police reform in Russia. What does it matter? Even if they had a perfect reform. Would change the names of all traffic cops. In a month they would be the same as everyone. Ruled out.

I. Zh.: At one time you said that there are two ways in the world — either go to Western culture or go nowhere. But you have since criticized the West. That is, Georgia should have its own way, or have you just changed your mind?

- No, I still think so. All the reforms that were passed were directed to the West. Can you imagine at least one successful reform that would be in the direction of the East? Reforms of Peter, Catherine, Alexei II, the early 1990s, where is the East? It is only necessary to go to the West - this is my firm conviction.

D.K .: And you still think that the American police system is the best, better than the European?

- Yes. Georgia is better suited for the American system because it is simpler and less bureaucratic. The European system is all built for the bureaucrat. Their institution of bureaucracy was brought up in the last 4-5 centuries. In America they are more liberal, everything is built on reducing the influence of bureaucracy. For countries like us, this is more suitable. We are determined to reduce the influence of bureaucracy. We have little time. We went this way.

We rewrote 70% of the laws with American and Italian law. We did not sit, did not copy-paste. Still changing, just as impossible. For example, we traveled, crossed the border of China with Hong Kong - we saw a great thing. When you cross the border on the Hong Kong side and on the Chinese side, people do not get out of cars. The windows were made at the driver level, you lower the window and pass. We decided to adopt it. And when our customs saw such a system - they came up with a better one. When we were sitting, I did not see what he was doing on the computer. They came up with this thing: they made a dual monitor, and now what the customs officer is doing, I see. Two weeks later, they stole this idea from us and put it in our centers for issuing documents. When the ministry learns something about the new effective mechanisms of another ministry, it immediately tries to adopt the idea. This is competition, it is now fashionable to compete with each other to simplify procedures.

When we first made clearance at the border, we changed the structure 4 times. First decided: let's make the principle of one room. They all gathered together, put tax officers, customs officers, police officers in one room. Did not like. As a result, a policeman is sitting now, and he has all the powers - a customs officer, a tax inspector, and a policeman. And he has everything. If a passenger car crosses the border, all procedures, including customs, are carried out by a policeman. And if the freight (there are more customs procedures), all procedures, including police, are carried out by the customs officer. And the person at the border communicates with only one person.

D.K .: Regarding the decrease in the influence of the bureaucracy: I just experienced this myself. I was born in St. Petersburg, received Russian citizenship. In 1999, I moved to Georgia with my family, here I received Georgian citizenship. As a result, when I won the Miss Georgia contest last year, it suddenly turned out that I was not a Georgian citizen. How could this happen that, having a Georgian passport in my hands, I lost my citizenship and I was not even informed about this? Do such situations often occur?

- I am surprised that this happened. Apparently, when you received Georgian citizenship, someone wrote out a fake document. With us, if a person receives another citizenship, he automatically loses Georgian citizenship. It is possible to obtain Georgian citizenship from us as a foreigner.

D.K .: I eventually received it, but not without the help of the president of the country.

- All is well that ends well. If you subjectively discuss, in any system there are excesses. That's life. Our most opaque system is obtaining citizenship. The procedure is not spelled out exactly there. In any country in the world, this is the most opaque story. There are no such rules. Someone can get right away, but someone can’t get it. I'm afraid for foreigners this is not a question of democracy or undemocracy. It is impossible to register a guarantee, as with a visa, that a person will bring a certificate, and they will give him a visa right away. And inside the state - everything should be transparent there. The biggest problem two or three years ago, you know what it was? All officials, fearing control from above, became bookworms. We were afraid to make a decision. Before that, officials all received bribes; everyone solved problems easily. Then they began to fight corruption, began to appoint new people, they begin to automatically create problems. And since you have no interest in solving them, it’s easier to do nothing.

I. Zh.: The situation with Bidzina Ivanishvili, who is also not given citizenship, as a result of which he cannot take part in the elections, is this also an accidental bureaucratic excess?

- There, the same system automatically worked, which Janet felt on herself. He was a citizen of Russia, then received a second citizenship of Georgia. Then he received French citizenship and did not inform us about this. And according to the law of Georgia, he automatically loses his citizenship. We are now adopting a new law according to which citizens of the European Union - ethnic Georgians can take part in the elections. Many European countries have such a law. This position was supported by the parliamentary majority. Then all questions will be removed immediately.

I. Zh.: But as I understand it, judging by the actions of the authorities, there is pressure on the business of an entrepreneur who decided to go into politics, you consider him a serious rival.

- Look at the ratings of his party. And you will understand everything. As I know, he had 10%.

I. Zh.: Do you consider him an agent of Russia?

- I would not want to answer this question. I do not want to provoke anyone.

I. Zh.: I’m asking you as not just a minister, but as one of the oldest political associates of President Mikheil Saakashvili

- Especially (laughs). And as far as business problems are concerned, I only know that many Georgians have problems with business in Russia. Why don't you ask how we shoot people, kill, strangle people?

I. Zh.: Now I will ask. And how do you kill?

- No, but I would like you to ask to answer that we do not.

I. Zh.: By the way, are you trying to get rid of the image of the police state?

“Why should we get rid of him?” What is good, what is effective, nice, what people like - let it be.

I. Zh.: Policemen are always visible on the street, they drive around, scare everyone with flashing lights, the feeling is that a big brother is watching you.

- It is visible, yes? And we have fewer police officers on the street than in any country in the world, although you will be surprised. Do you know how many patrol cars are in all of Georgia? 220. Very few. We have a very small number and below the average European per 1000 population.

D.K .: And less than it was in 2003?

- Four times. Do you know what helps? The union of all structures within the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Firstly, the number of bureaucracy has decreased, and secondly, they are deeply cooperating with each other. We do not need, for example, counterintelligence - the 5,000 people who were during the time of Shevardnadze. We have 26,000 in total. This means 26,000 counterintelligence officers and 26,000 police officers. There is no such thing that the department is closed from everyone else at home. Everyone is open and helping each other. Starting from the collection of information and ending with everything else. If counterintelligence has found some kind of criminal information, it will not hide it. For example, we have an anti-terrorism center. Do you know how many people are there? 42 people. Despite the fact that last year there were 25 attempts to organize a terrorist attack in the country. And we are still champions in Europe in the number of women in the operational service. Their 17%, this is a very high figure. Previously, we tried to attract more women for the image, and then it turned out that they were very effective, everyone was convinced that we need to have a certain number of women, because they are very sensitive, more accurate, they have traits that are needed for daily work. Indeed, 99% of the work of the police is an everyday routine.

D.K .: But what about the power to detain criminals?

- Over the past four years, we have not had a single case of armed resistance during the detention. But before that, in 2004-2005, we lost 36 policemen and 39 criminals died at the hands of the police. But after that there was no attempt at armed resistance. Not a single policeman was killed, and not a single criminal died during detention.

I. Zh.: What to do with crowded prisons?

- In general, there is no such thing as sitting too much. It should sit as long as there are criminals. Firstly, the number of suspended sentences has grown a lot, every ten times in the last 5 years. And the most interesting is that the number of prisoners has not increased over the past three years. And we invested a lot of money in prisons. About $ 300 million. We built new prisons, very comfortable. Typically American prisons where they feed. They are in no way inferior to European ones. Over the past three years, the number of prisoners has not increased. You can come to our prison, we invite.

I. Zh.: Thank you. Somehow, at large, better though. By the way, how do you teach police culture? I was struck by the fact that most of them had the question “Can I help you?” Written on their faces.

- It is very difficult. The man is very strange. Sometimes a good mood, sometimes a bad one. Sometimes he had a fight with his wife. But it takes a very long time to work, to train, so that the manager looks. Very difficult and not always successful.

I. Zh.: That is, special psychologists work with them?

- No no no. No extra. We ourselves are psychologists. If you want something, you will surely succeed. All the time you need to control, create competition and so on.

I. Zh.: In April, a resident of the Kostroma region Bella Vekua was detained in Poti; she was suspected of having been to Abkhazia. After this detention, our Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not recommend the Russians to visit your country: you can go to jail. Why are there such strict standards and is it worth the Russians detained in Abkhazia to be apprehended by detentions?

- If a person illegally crossed the border of the occupied territory, we are forced to detain him. Like any citizen of Russia, he legally has the right to cross the border with Abkhazia, but there are rules on how to do this. If he crosses illegally - this is a violation of the border, it is punishable.

I. Zh.: That is, if I went to Abkhazia last year, and in this I went to Georgia, then you detain me here?

“Not necessarily delayed.” In 90% of cases, this is a fine.

I. Zh.: Or will they not let me in Georgia?

- This is decided individually. When a person crosses the border illegally, this is a violation. If some Georgian passes by the checkpoint and arrives in Moscow, and he does not have a stamp that he crossed the border, he will be arrested. Or some citizen from Georgia crossed the mountains and ended up in Grozny. What will happen to him?

D.K .: I can give my example. My grandmother lives there, and I was in Abkhazia. And I have never been detained.

- In general, go to Georgia anyway.

I. Zh.: Yeah. And there we’ll figure it out.

- Cross the border of Abkhazia by legal means. It says what checkpoint you can go through.

I. Zh.: So you can go through the territory of Georgia?

- Sure. Abkhazia is Georgia (pause). Janet, maybe you still have questions?

 

[Матушкин Андрей Николаевич]

Thank. I read it with interest.

 

[D-Mass]

Thank. Well, in Georgia, they say, they had a good reform. Inside is more visible. In general, transparent police in Georgia, and transparent in our country ...

 

[Детективное агентство. Инициатива. Самара.]

I read it with great interest. Thank.

 

[Краев Евгений Леонидович]

Interesting stuff, thanks!