Competitive Intelligence and the ARD Act. Adapting special methods

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

Dear Kuznecov.Igorj,

Will you answer my questions? I asked you here about specific things on the topic under discussion: com / viewtopic.php? p = 128967 # p128967

But somehow it seems strange, in my opinion, it looks: You say that you are talking with the wrong words, but you refuse to speak on the substance of the issue under discussion, preferring to state your biography.

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

And this I did not understand:

Write, since this is your topic, just do not cross the line. Igor, Riga.

Dear Igor, who do you consider yourself? The legislator? And what is this definition: "hell"?
There is the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. Well, it’s not just not to cross it, but forbidden. We are talking from this from the first minute. What new things have you brought in your statement besides confusion in terms?

But whether you like it all or not, this is your own business. There will be objections - let’s. Only, please, specifically: what, in your opinion, and why are we violating in our work. Keep your emotions to yourself, and the facts to the studio.

 

[Андрей Захаров]

Dear colleagues))) I, as a person who has extensive practice, in total over 30 years and has been involved in NPV (on the basis of a license) for more than 13 years (before that, over 14 years the number of investigative work), do not understand how to discuss the problem (or issues of the ARD-concept enshrined in the relevant Law) and the activities of various legal entities and individuals that have virtually no relation to the ARD ... Another issue is the boundaries of the ARD (enshrined in the Law) and the boundaries of the operations of the RND (also enshrined in the Law) ... At least, this is comparable in terms of the level of the issue under discussion ... And in this case (meaning this publication), we are discussing something ... In fact, the subject of discussion is the use of methods for obtaining information regulated by the ARD in activities marketing research ... Agree colleagues questions (ARD and marketing research conducted by commercial structures) are clearly not comparable ... Here's a question for discussion, methods, note hired to collect information during the NPV and methods for collecting information when conducting marketing research is clearly relevant and at least comparable by subjects of this type of activity (NPV-entrepreneurial activity, conducting commercial marketing research (KR, etc.) - also entrepreneurial activity )...Something like this....

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

Dear colleagues))) I, as a person who has extensive practice, in total over 30 years and has been involved in NPV (on the basis of a license) for more than 13 years (before that, over 14 years the number of investigative work), do not understand how to discuss the problem (or issues of the ARD concept enshrined in the relevant Law) and the activities of various legal entities and individuals who have virtually nothing to do with the ORD ...

Well, let me try to explain again - in other words.

There is a need for organizations and people to predict the development of events or to understand those that have already occurred. This need objectively exists.

To help in this matter, there is a certain analytical apparatus, partly intuitive, partly requiring special training.

To carry out the analytical process, you need to collect information and analyze it. The stage of collecting information includes working with people and documents.

Since a number of state power structures also have a need to collect and analyze information, these structures have written a list of activities that they are involved in. This list partially overlaps with what any person does - including and those who are unaware of the existence of the Law on the ARD and the list of ORM. In the end, what difference does it make to people - did the police make a cheat sheet from what every person does or did not do every day? People just live.

But for some reason, some former law enforcement officials forgot that the ORM list did not fall from heaven and was not given by the Lord to the elect, but represents precisely that official formalization of part of ordinary life. And such BSMs, when they see at least a hint of intersection with the set of actions that are listed in the ORM list, actively begin to protest against the actions themselves.
Here, it is precisely the massive, but completely unreasonable protest of the BSM part regarding "You can’t engage in ORM for civilians!" and led to this discussion.

They - this BSM - have to explain what the rest of humanity understands as follows: that, having put crusts on the table, BSM is deprived of the opportunity to carry out ORM, but is not deprived of human rights, therefore it can talk with people, look around and read documents. But here it is not necessary to call it ORM, because it is not ORM.

Another issue is the boundaries of the ARD (enshrined in the Law) and the boundaries of the NPV activities (also enshrined in the Law) ... At least this is comparable in terms of the level of the issue under discussion ...

And what could be the question here? If you are not an employee of a government agency, you cannot deal with the ARD. Well, do not do it. But nobody forbids talking, reading, looking and thinking. Is not it?

And in this case (this publication is meant), what we are discussing ... Actually, the subject of discussion is the use of methods for obtaining information regulated by the ARD in marketing research activities ... Agree with your fellow questions (ARD and marketing research conducted by commercial structures) are clearly not comparable ... Here is the discussion question, the methods used to collect information when implementing NPV and the methods of collecting information when conducting marketing research are clearly relevant and at least comparable by subjects of this kind of activity (NPV-entrepreneurial activities, conducting commercial marketing research (KR, etc.) - also entrepreneurial activity) ... Something like this ....

I answered these questions above. And yes - the marketing life of an enterprise and its management is not limited to marketing research. Therefore, we are talking about the application in the information and analytical support of the work of non-state and state (but not power) structures, those methods of work that are legal, but some of which were once included in the ORM list.

 

[Арсен]

Thank!

 

[Андрей Захаров]

Dear colleagues))) I, as a person who has extensive practice, in total over 30 years and has been involved in NPV (on the basis of a license) for more than 13 years (before that, over 14 years the number of investigative work), do not understand how to discuss the problem (or issues of the ARD concept enshrined in the relevant Law) and the activities of various legal entities and individuals who have virtually nothing to do with the ORD ...

Well, let me try to explain again - in other words.

There is a need for organizations and people to predict the development of events or to understand those that have already occurred. This need objectively exists.

To help in this matter, there is a certain analytical apparatus, partly intuitive, partly requiring special training.

To carry out the analytical process, you need to collect information and analyze it. The stage of collecting information includes working with people and documents.

Since a number of state power structures also have a need to collect and analyze information, these structures have written a list of activities that they are involved in. This list partially overlaps with what any person does - including and those who are unaware of the existence of the Law on the ARD and the list of ORM. In the end, what difference does it make to people - did the police make a cheat sheet from what every person does or did not do every day? People just live.

But for some reason, some former law enforcement officials forgot that the ORM list did not fall from heaven and was not given by the Lord to the elect, but represents precisely that official formalization of part of ordinary life. And such BSMs, when they see at least a hint of intersection with the set of actions that are listed in the ORM list, actively begin to protest against the actions themselves.
Here, it is precisely the massive, but completely unreasonable protest of the BSM part regarding "You can’t engage in ORM for civilians!" and led to this discussion.

They - this BSM - have to explain what the rest of humanity understands as follows: that, having put crusts on the table, BSM is deprived of the opportunity to carry out ORM, but is not deprived of human rights, therefore it can talk with people, look around and read documents. But here it is not necessary to call it ORM, because it is not ORM.

Another issue is the boundaries of the ARD (enshrined in the Law) and the boundaries of the NPV activities (also enshrined in the Law) ... At least this is comparable in terms of the level of the issue under discussion ...

And what could be the question here? If you are not an employee of a government agency, you cannot deal with the ARD. Well, do not do it. But nobody forbids talking, reading, looking and thinking. Is not it?

And in this case (this publication is meant), what we are discussing ... Actually, the subject of discussion is the use of methods for obtaining information regulated by the ARD in marketing research activities ... Agree with your fellow questions (ARD and marketing research conducted by commercial structures) are clearly not comparable ... Here is the discussion question, the methods used to collect information when implementing NPV and the methods of collecting information when conducting marketing research are clearly relevant and at least comparable by subjects of this kind of activity (NPV-entrepreneurial activities, conducting commercial marketing research (KR, etc.) - also entrepreneurial activity) ... Something like this ....

I answered these questions above. And yes - the marketing life of an enterprise and its management is not limited to marketing research. Therefore, we are talking about the application in the information and analytical support of the work of non-state and state (but not power) structures, those methods of work that are legal, but some of which were once included in the ORM list.

I just don’t understand, of course, there are certain methods of obtaining information ... But why focus on the fact that they, supposedly being publicly available and applicable, formally relate to the methods of obtaining information specific to the ARD ... Probably, this is necessary case, not to focus on the ARD (as a loud, specific name for an activity), not to talk about some ORM (also a specific name for events), but just to talk about how this or that information is obtained ... And that’s it .. .And all these references to the ORD, ORM are likely for people who previously had nothing to do with this activity, but would like to be, so to speak, involved ... I’m personally of course wondering how various specialists (in their fields) they carry out, purely practically, the collection of information of a different nature ... It is possible and necessary to learn this ... (topics are very interesting) .However, to procrastinate various terms, especially the specific ones (ORD.ORM in entrepreneurial activity), Xia, there’s nothing ... The specialist will understand ... And whoever doesn’t understand, it’s probably all the same ... And as for the list of measures within the framework of the ARD, note that these measures are aimed only at identifying and suppressing the facts of the commission of crimes ... And only ... And they consolidate the legal basis for the legalization of information (giving them the status of evidence under the Criminal Procedure Code) and nothing else ... What we are discussing now has nothing to do with the identification and suppression of crimes, because . all of these issues — market research, analysis of the activities of enterprises, etc. — all these are the areas of civil activity of specific enterprises, nothing more ... Therefore, playing with words on the issue of the ARD and the ORM in this case is clearly not appropriate ...

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

I just don’t understand, of course, there are certain methods of obtaining information ... But why focus on the fact that they, supposedly being publicly available and applicable, formally relate to the methods of obtaining information specific to the ARD ... Probably, this is necessary case, not to focus on the ARD (as a loud, specific name for an activity), not to talk about some ORM (also a specific name for events), but just to talk about how this or that information is obtained ... And that’s it .. .

If the former law enforcement officers had not stated that the competitive intelligence is illegally engaged in the ARD, because it is conducting an ORM, there would be no questions. But if only ... And they say, and very loudly. Here, especially for them it is necessary to explain. that's all.

There is one more thing. Competitive intelligence is rooted in the state. And is an adaptation of its methods to civil circulation. This issue also applies to adaptation of methods.

But in fact you are, of course, right.

 

[Бедеров Игорь Сергеевич]

They - this BSM - have to explain what the rest of humanity understands as follows: that, having put crusts on the table, BSM is deprived of the opportunity to carry out ORM, but is not deprived of human rights, therefore it can talk with people, look around and read documents. But here it is not necessary to call it ORM, because it is not ORM.

This is the salt. We are discussing the empty, it is better to learn the hardware)))) If the DSP document is on the Internet and the admins did not close it, then this is the fault of the admins, and not the one who found it.

If I have a conversation, this does not mean that I am interrogating or inquiring.

etc. etc.

the detective is limited by the scope of the NPV, the citizen is limited only by the Administrative Code and Criminal Code

 

[JR Security Consulting Group]

They - this BSM - have to explain what the rest of humanity understands as follows: that, having put crusts on the table, BSM is deprived of the opportunity to carry out ORM, but is not deprived of human rights, therefore it can talk with people, look around and read documents. But here it is not necessary to call it ORM, because it is not ORM.

This is the salt. We are discussing the empty, it is better to learn the hardware)))) If the DSP document is on the Internet and the admins did not close it, then this is the fault of the admins, and not the one who found it.

If I have a conversation, this does not mean that I am interrogating or inquiring.

etc. etc.

the detective is limited by the scope of the NPV, the citizen is limited only by the Administrative Code and Criminal Code

A detective, like a citizen, lives according to the laws of his country and answers according to them, no one has canceled this, and plus everything else, there is also a law on NPV

 

[Арсен]

Colleagues get information in any way possible. The main thing to call these actions is not ORM, but for example: (detective activities)
and everything will be alright. All the same, our activities are half illegal. As if we did not try to comply with the law, in view of the circumstances
in our activities, human rights are indirectly violated. And if at all fully guided by the letter of the law, then it is better to
do not engage in NPV.