The difference in KR and detective work

[Детектив-Юг]

And all the same, what kind of White Zone can we talk about?
Automatically pop up a number of articles of the Criminal Tax and Administrative Codes.

Everyone chooses for himself a woman, religion, road ...
And there is our reality, when things are fabricated and innocent are planted ... This is also real ...

If you talk like that, then it’s much more profitable to rob banks.

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

Eugene, we really don’t seem to understand each other.
Detectives do nothing of the above.

Well, maybe we don’t understand. Therefore, this is precisely what we clarify. Simply, you wrote:

> So these Detectives, unlike businessmen, know what they are doing and practically do what they did before when they wore epaulettes. <

And when they wore epaulettes, they could engage in searches, and wiretapping, and censorship. Moreover, what is important - in full accordance with the Law. But, having put on the table the identity card of an employee of the power structure - they can no longer fully engage in "what they did before when they wore epaulettes."

I had in mind the Detectives' strict observance of the laws of their country.
The Laws on Detective Activities clearly spell out what a Detective can do and what cannot.
For example, a detective can communicate with a citizen in order to receive any information from him only with his consent.

So any citizen must abide by the laws of his country, right?

And, for example, to ask someone to talk with a citizen, maybe even the most scrupulous detective, it seems to me. There is another option - absolutely legal - to get information by simply asking what is interesting. If a person wished to answer the question himself, without coercion and bribery - did he thereby already consent? Well, how? Do not plug his mouth with the crust of a detective ...
In general, there are usually many options not to violate the law.

Add to the words of Jacob.
How does an individual legally formalize the volume of work performed?
Draws up a contract for the collection of information about what or about whom, provides a report or an act of work performed and holds the received bank fee?

It depends on what kind of work. For example, as consulting. It greatly depends on what is being done and why. Here, it is possible that we have just different “pictures” before our eyes.
Abstractly, I can assume that there is a question - to give a forecast on such and such a situation. Intelligence, I recall, mainly works on forecasting. It is clear that in order to answer it, work is being done to find information sources and obtain this information. Then a report can be prepared and transmitted to the customer. and payment - yes, the bank has been posted. It is unlikely that the customer is interested in each step, and it is unlikely that even the contractor himself was able to predict these steps initially.

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

And all the same, what kind of White Zone can we talk about?
Automatically pop up a number of articles of the Criminal Tax and Administrative Codes.

Automatically, thank God, articles do not pop up. Unless in fantasies. But the fact that the activity should be placed in the framework of the law - we are talking from the beginning. and yes - indeed, this must be done. Mandatory. Otherwise, it is impossible.

 

[Детектив-Юг]

Eugene this debate can be conducted endlessly.
Let's stop.
Each of us does his work as he sees fit and chooses his own path.
The topics you cover are interesting to everyone.
The only thing I want to remind readers in this thread, which is open to everyone, is that all the activities described should be carried out within the framework of the legal framework.

As Igor mentioned above, anyone can download if desired.

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

Eugene this debate can be conducted endlessly.
Let's stop.
Each of us does his work as he sees fit and chooses his own path.
The topics you cover are interesting to everyone.

OK. And thanks.

The only thing I want to remind readers in this thread, which is open to everyone, is that all the activities described should be carried out within the framework of the legal framework.

Well, then I’ll remind you of where we started and what we constantly repeat: competitive intelligence initially appeared after ALL illegal was removed from state intelligence methods. Therefore, it cannot even be theoretically illegal.
For this reason, everything that is said about competitive intelligence, a priori implies that it works within the law.

As Igor mentioned above, anyone can download if desired.

This is partly true. But in reality - not really. Because there are mechanisms that do not allow this to be done if there is no order from the very very top. And before the very top begins to give orders, you still need to grow. This is not a level for everyone.
However, this is purely theoretical, because, I repeat, the Kyrgyz Republic does not violate the law and it is possible to punish for it with the help of the Law, perhaps only by lawlessness. And this is a completely different story.

PS And since there was a talk about "Remind me that we must work within the law." The legal profession was created to fit the actions of people and organizations into the framework of the law. because, as Jerzy Lets said, “Ignorance of the law does not exempt from responsibility, and knowledge is easy.” So, “Remind me that I need to work within the framework of the law,” I would interpret not as “try not to do anything so as not to violate anything”, but as “correlate your actions with the Law and think how not to go beyond it in each case framework. Well, do not go beyond them, of course. "

 

[Андрей Захаров]

Dear colleagues))) In my opinion, it is not necessary to compare the incompatible ... KR or something else (persons conducting marketing research) in any case collect information ... The Law on the NPV clearly states that the BH has the right to collect information that may be necessary to carry out the same marketing research (which, among other things, involves an analysis of the information collected) ... BH is a person engaged only in collecting information and all ... Including market research and etc. (information necessary for research) ... If a person (legal or physical) collects this information only for "his own needs" - violations of the Law when collecting this information (in principle), there is no (excluding clearly prohibited methods of collecting information). ..If this information is collected by a person for another person (physical or legal) in this case, this information can be collected (within the framework of the legal field, of course) only of the BH providing the services provided by the Law (including not only the Law on NPV, but also by civil law) ... As long as the collection of information on these categories of “cases” is carried out outside the legal field, there can be no talk of any civilized approach to the development of NPV, at least in Russia. ..I believe that people need to be taught not how to circumvent the Law when collecting information, but how to do it in accordance with the law ... And this can be done if only the black hole is involved in the collection of necessary information ... Something like that So...

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

UCHD is a person engaged only in the collection of information and all ...

But isn't a private detective engaged in interpreting the collected information? What does he have - collecting information for the sake of the collection itself?

If a person (legal or physical) collects this information only for "his needs" - violations of the Law when collecting this information (in principle) is not (excluding explicitly prohibited methods of collecting information) ... If this information is collected by a person for another person (physical or legal) in this case, this information can be collected (within the framework of the legal field, of course) only of the BH providing the services provided by the Law (including not only the BHA Law, but also civil law) ...

Let's get in more detail from this place. The organization "Daisy" from Yakutsk became interested in the prospects for the development of a particular market. And also those who provide services similar to her own in Bryansk. She concludes an agreement with LLC Pedrishchev-Consult for these works. The result should be a report on the prospects for market development and a list of participants in Bryansk, with a brief description of each, suitable for making a decision on cooperation with him.

And you want to say that Pedrishchev-Consult LLC does not have the right to carry out this work without involving a private detective?

As long as the collection of information on these categories of “cases” is carried out outside the legal field, there can be no question of any civilized approach to the development of NPVs, at least in Russia ... I think that it’s not necessary to teach people how to get around the law when collecting information, and how to do it in accordance with the law ... And this can be done if only the black hole is involved in the collection of necessary information ... Something like this ...

I seem to understand your logic: you would like only a private detective to have the right to read newspapers and annual reports, as well as talk with those who own the situation on the market. Moreover, despite the fact that this is only your personal desire, not supported by anything other than a sense of inner conviction, you consider all other options illegal right now. Well, you know ... Legality is nevertheless verified with the Law, and not with the desires of detectives. Therefore, one can probably regret the absence of a monopoly, but declaring its absence illegal is, in my opinion, already too much.

 

[Детективное агентство Москва.]

Andrei Valerievich, let me disagree.

If this information is collected by a person for another person (physical or legal) in this case, this information can only be collected (within the framework of the legal field)

Article 3. Types of security and detective services
(as amended by Federal law of 22.12.2008 N 272-ФЗ)
Private detective and security activities are carried out for investigation and protection.
In order to investigate permitted provision of the following types of services:
1) collection of information on civil cases on a contractual basis with participants in the process;
2) market research collecting information for business negotiations, identifying insolvent or unreliable business partners;
3) the establishment of the circumstances of the unlawful use of company marks and names in entrepreneurial activity, unfair competition, as well as the disclosure of information constituting a trade secret;
4) clarification of biographical and other personality-characterizing data on individual citizens (with their written consent) upon their conclusion of labor and other contracts;
5) search for missing citizens;
6) the search for property lost by citizens or enterprises, institutions, organizations;
7) collection of information on criminal cases on a contractual basis with participants in the process. Within a day from the moment of concluding a contract with the client for the collection of such information, the private investigator is obliged to notify the person conducting the inquiry, the investigator or the court in whose proceedings the criminal case is informed.

A stumbling block in this topic has become only part of the Black Bond service, clause 2. All other paragraphs of the Kyrgyz Republic are not relevant. And by the way, if you look at the wording of the article, you can see that this service permitted BH, and gives it the exclusive right to provide this service.
It can also be noted that BH is valid in order to protect the legitimate rights and interests of its customers . (Article 1).
The Kyrgyz Republic does not protect legal rights, but predicts situations and helps to do business.

At the same time, anyone can study the markets (collect information and analyze it) - bank analysts, traders, marketers, PR-schiki, etc. Nowhere is there a direct ban on these actions for any categories of citizens and legal entities. persons. Consulting companies also do this absolutely legally. In addition, if I, an individual (for example, an independent analyst), on behalf of the jur. persons studied a certain segment of the market, prepared a report and received payment for it - where is the violation of the law? It will be a violation if the payment goes black, but this is a different story.

Something like that.

 

[Ющук Евгений Леонидович]

A stumbling block in this topic has become only part of the Black Bond service, clause 2. All other paragraphs of the Kyrgyz Republic are not relevant. And by the way, if you look at the wording of the article, you can see that this service permitted BH, and gives it the exclusive right to provide this service.
It can also be noted that BH is valid in order to protect the legitimate rights and interests of its customers . (Article 1).
The Kyrgyz Republic does not protect legal rights, but predicts situations and helps to do business.

At the same time, anyone can study the markets (collect information and analyze it) - bank analysts, traders, marketers, PR-schiki, etc. Nowhere is there a direct ban on these actions for any categories of citizens and legal entities. persons. Consulting companies also do this absolutely legally. In addition, if I, an individual (for example, an independent analyst), on behalf of the jur. persons studied a certain segment of the market, prepared a report and received payment for it - where is the violation of the law? It will be a violation if the payment goes black, but this is a different story.

Something like that.

I agree. I’ll supplement it with another consideration.

If one day it comes to someone’s mind to really forbid everyone except BlackBerry to collect information about the market or, for example, about people's moods, this will threaten Russia's national security. After all, a private detective is an individual entrepreneur. Its capabilities are not comparable with the capabilities of large organizations engaged in the collection and processing of market information. Therefore, the hypothetical endowment of the Black Sea with the exclusive right to collect and analyze information is tantamount to surrender by the whole country. in view of the absolute superiority of geopolitical competitors and their business in this situation.

Fortunately, it is so obvious that hardly anyone will take such steps. However, this attempt, if it takes place, will be blocked already at the FAS level. But even if FAS passes by some miracle, the Constitutional Court will recall the Constitution of the Russian Federation: “Article 29 4. Everyone has the right to freely seek, receive, transmit, produce and disseminate information by any legal means.”

 

[Детектив-Юг]

What we argue has long been spelled out in the laws of all countries.
The legislation is constantly being improved and updated, study and draw conclusions.
Take for example the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation chapter 29 updated last year.

https://www.newsfiber.com/p/s/h?v=EOsPzQ ... Xm3MyFI% 3D

[DLMURL] https://www.consultant.ru/popular/ukrf/10_40.html#p5279 [/ DLMURL]

On November 14, 2012, a new law on treason and espionage entered into force, which amends the criminal code, in particular the articles "Espionage", "State Treason", "Divulging State Secrets" and supplements it with an article on the illegal receipt of information constituting state secrets.

The concept of state treason has been expanded, now responsibility is facing for any help, whether to the state or to an organization if their activity is directed against the security of the Russian Federation. The concept of espionage now includes the collection of data, not necessarily classified and their transmission for use against the security of the country. The circle of persons on whom responsibility for espionage is imposed has also been expanded, now the collection of information falls on the article not only at work, but also in “other cases”.